Kristian: Hello everyone. Hello everybody. My god, you're so quick. Hello. I'm a little bit nervous about this one tonight.

Hey guys, hi everybody. Hello. What's the story, as we say here in Ireland. Okay. Without a technical hitch tonight, I feel it, I feel it.

Hey Siggy, how you doing?

I can feel the angels or devils of technology are with me. So are you all ready? Are you ready for this? I'm now going to invite the legend that is David Jenkins to join our little chat. Okay.

If you're watching, I just invited you. You should see a little invite at the bottom of your screen.

[David joins, posing on the floor]

Kristian: Oh my god, it worked first time!

David: [raspy] Oh, hi.

Kristian: Hello.

David: Didn't know you guys were there. 

Kristian: Yeah, we're always here.

David: [still posing] Chilling out. Casually.

Kristian: We have you sideways. You can't be sideways. It might be comfortable, but you're sideways and it's just unacceptable.

David: [laughing] Yeah, it's too weird. No format change for me? Okay. I get it. I get it. 

Kristian: How are you?

David: I'm okay, man. How you doing? 

Kristian: I'm doing really well. I can't believe I've been doing this now for two and a half months.

David: I love it, I love the...

Kristian: And I've aged considerably in that time. No, so...

David: Awwr, awesomeness. It's how it seems to be with this show.

Kristian: You know what these people are like, they're so amazing. It's been incredible. Father, people are calling you father. I've never had so many questions. I have so many questions for you.

David: Wow. Fantastic. Everyone's sweet. Father freaks me out.

Kristian: I like it a lot.

David: It's also... makes me feel [Kristian: Makes you feel things?] really bubbly inside, and warm.

Kristian: This is not the David that I know. But umm, okay.

David: I had to put on my game face, man. We're making a... hard show to make. It's a surprisingly hard show to make, for a goofy fucking pirate show. It's uh, it's involved! It's involved.

Kristian: Yeah. Yeah, I've seen it first hand. But that was a great episode. That was a great episode. It was the first time I saw it as well.

David: I'm really happy with how it came out.

Kristian: Yeah. I actually teared up at one point.

David: Good!

Kristian: Yeah, it... Oh. Well, I hope that's a good reaction. It was the bit where he says to Mary, like, "Ed", and it's a he. And I just went... [covers mouth with hand]

David: I cry like a baby. The first time I saw the assembly of that... Hilda Rasula, our lead editor, cut that episode. And seeing that... because I wrote it, and in your head you know it's gonna be a montage-y thing, and then it's going to intercut with all these images. And then when you're shooting it on set, you're dialing in all the performances and everything, but you still don't know if you've got it.

Kristian: Yeah. 

David: And then to see it cut together, and to see... I think Hilda picked that music that plays behind it. And it is amazing when you see an edit of something and it just touches you, and it surprises you, even though you wrote it. It's one of the best feelings.

Kristian: Yeah, that's amazing. It's a really good scene.

Well, let's launch into these questions here, because otherwise we're gonna be here till Christmas. 

David: Yeah, let's do it.

Kristian: Okay, are you ready for this? 

David: Yeah.

Kristian: Some of the names are a bit questionable, but I love it, it's fun. This is from waterychilli. 

David: Sure, why not.

Who came up with the idea to use The Chain and why? (04:47)

Kristian: "Who came up with the..." Oh, topically, "who came up with the idea to use The Chain at the end of episode eight, and why that song?"

David: That was me, and I knew very early on. When we were writing that episode... sometimes when we're writing an episode, I'll hear music – come out of the writers room and just hear a song at the right time. And that was a song I heard at the right time when writing the end of that episode, and Ed coming back to Stede, and just us in the writers room talking about how it will work. And I think I heard that song that evening. And I love it, because it sounds a little bit like a Western at the opening of it, which is fantastic. The lyrics are on point. It just seemed perfect. Hearing it after just working on the scene, it just clicked. And it was like, oh yeah, those things belong together. So that was the first piece of music that I had cleared, which is what we have to do to get a song. And I asked them, you know, how much is it going to be? Because Fleetwood Mac is not cheap. But I made sure we had that carved out in the budget early.

Kristian: Yeah, I mean, it was important. That was amazing, a good choice. I mean...

David: Thanks, man.

Kristian: There was a... I think Alex and Alyssa, they would give musical choices as well sometimes. They were not always used, but I think everyone was quite vocal about what music they wanted in. Because I knew I was having ideas, even, by the end of it. Like "could you put... mm..."

David: A lot of pitches. [laughs] Ultimately, ultimately it's my choice. It's nice, though. I mean, there are times though when somebody throws in a track that's amazing. Like the third episode ends with this Beach Boys track that Daniel Haworth, our editor, picked, and I never would have – it never would have occurred to me to use that. And then sometimes you see it, and it's like, oh, great. Because they'll put in something that's temp that they like for the edit. So when that happens, it's lovely. But we also have a fantastic music supervisor. I mean, she's incredible.

Kristian: Yeah, I have spoken to other podcasts about how you would have your boombox, carrying it around with you. And you have a surprisingly diverse... As a musician, you have a surprisingly diverse taste of music. Most of it's stuff I've never heard. It's quite rare.

David: It's the algorithm. It's the algorithm.

Kristian: The algorithm?

David: It makes you look really cool. 

Kristian: [overlapping] Don't say that. Don't say that. Oh my god, cool points. Your cool points have just fallen away.

David: [overlapping] If you get like, if you get into a thing, it's like, ahhh, I really like this.

David: You get into like, I like this Ethiopian jazz musician. And then the fact that you can just go on radio, and then it spits all these things at you, is incredible. And then a lot of times, like a lot of music in the second season... I'll hear stuff, just letting it play when I'm not at work. And then it's interesting because the boombox, you can play it to set the mood on set for the scene. And sometimes, a lot of times, play the track that's going to end up in the actual scene. And it dials the crew in, dials the actors in to what the tone of the scene is going to be. And then just as, like, a fan, it's like I get to have a pirate ship and we get to play pirates. And be wildly melodramatic. It's just cool to have music on set. It's just fun.

Kristian: Yeah, it really helps, actually.

What character changed the most from concept to final edit? (08:14)

Kristian: So this is from fraxlnus. Curious name. "David..." These are all for you, there's none for me. So I'm really happy with that. "David, what character changed the most from concept to final edit? And what influenced that development?"

David: Oh, that's hard to say. I think the biggest... I'm not going to totally answer this question, because I don't know the answer to that. I will say that... we write these characters in the first season in the abstract, because you don't... I didn't even know who Stede was going to be. I thought maybe like, Steve Coogan could be a good Stede. Or you could build a version of the show with like, Zach Galifianakis. Would be a very different show if you do it, you know, there are any number of people, but…

Across the entire cast, we're writing these characters in the room not knowing who's going to play them. And then we basically cast halfway through writing these scripts, maybe we'd finished the fourth episode. And then when you actually cast the actors, then just a light bulb goes off. You see an actor – like you. See you, and you can get 40 different ideas come from seeing you in that part. And it's just reinvigorating, it's like you're in the middle of a marathon and you get a second wind, because you know who the person is. [doorbell rings] It's just exciting. [David walks to the door as the bell rings more insistently]

Kristian: That's Hollywood.

[ringing stops.]

Kristian: Live, we're live, folks.

David: We're live, guys! You just saw me get a UPS package!

Kristian: Well, okay, that was a good answer.

What's the worst thing about cats? (10:09)

Kristian: From our flag... I like this name. From ourflgmeansjeff.

David: I love that, that's fantastic.

Kristian: Yeah. This is a very popular question and I want to know this too. David, what in your opinion is the worst thing about cats?

David: The worst thing about cats? They're terrorists. They destroy everything. I don't think they even know why they're doing it. Besides that it's fun.

Kristian: That's the worst kind. Terror.

David: It's fun for them. 

Kristian: It is. 

David: I'm telling you. A dog? If a dog destroys something, he'll be upset. He'll be...

Kristian: Actually, you know, I read a scientific interview recently. This is gonna blow your world. Apparently dogs don't have feelings of remorse. They're only sorry that you find them, that you find it out. 

David: I believe that.

Kristian: Yeah.

David: And that's why they're just like people.

Kristian: [laughs] That's true, yeah.

David: I feel like cats, though, there's not even a flicker behind the eyes.

Kristian: No. I'm not a cat fan either, guys. I know I'm going to get hate for this, but I'm not a cat fan. But I have a good reason. I'm allergic. Horribly, horribly allergic.

David: I actually love kitty cats. I think they're adorable. And I think they're really funny. And I just think...

Kristian: [muttering] Right, I'm the only person that hates cats. Okay.

David: What's that?

Kristian: Do you like cats?

David: I do, I do, I have two. 

Kristian: [sighs] You have two cats?!

David: Yeah.

Kristian: Okay, this has gone horribly wrong.

David: They're sisters. And my dog loves them dearly. He feels like he's their mom. And they destroy beauty. Anything people brought into the house, they destroy it.

Kristian: Anything of value. Inherently.

David: Value, beauty. Fragility.

Kristian: [laughs] I concur. Along with my health.

David: They're the Joker. They're like the Joker, they're just cute.

Kristian: Yeah. Yeah, they are. I absolutely agree.

What little detail were you most excited to see fans notice? Are there any easter eggs we haven't noticed? (12:23)

Kristian: Okay, I love this one, too. Michellethestan asks: "David, what little detail were you most excited to see fans notice?" And there's another question I think would tie in with this: "Were there any little easter eggs that we haven't noticed?"

David: Boy, it's hard to say that there's anything that's gone unnoticed in the show. Because the fan base for this show is so gracious and attentive. And I think it's very rare to have, like, every department that works on the show, something that they did got called out in a positive way. Everything! Stuff that you think, no one's gonna notice that, that's a little joke for me. No one's gonna notice that.

Kristian: Yeah.

David: It's hard to go... I could answer this like that [snaps fingers] when the season first came out. Having gone through a second season and had some time away from it, it's hard to remember. What was the question? Like, what's the specific thing that's, um...

Kristian: Yeah, what little detail were you most excited to see fans notice?

David: Oh man. I had an answer to that. I did. It's gone. I think I talked about it in some interview after it. But the thing that I love… No, I do know. There's little costume things that they notice. And they noticed when like, Blackbeard wears purple. And it's just one of those things where I wanted Blackbeard to start wearing purple as he was falling in love and as he was opening up. And it's one of those things that you're like, no one's gonna notice that, that's for us. And it's for Taika and it's for Rhys and it's for whatever actor. And then to see people notice it like that [snaps fingers] and celebrate it and make beautiful art around it? That inspires you to do cool stuff in the second season? That's absolutely incredible and humbling and I think it never happens.

Kristian: Yeah, okay, that's good. 

Is there anything from season one that the fandom has embraced or focused on that has surprised you? (14:35)

Kristian: Let me see. Maybe this is similar. If you think it's too similar just smack me down. Smack me down, David.

David: No, I'd never smack you, you're much bigger than me.

Kristian: [laughs] Alright. muh_rye_uh... Muhrye UK? I don't know. "David, is there anything from season one that the fandom has embraced or focused on that has surprised you?" A bit similar. "A moment, a scene, or a particular line that you've noticed everyone loves and you did not expect them to?"

David: I think the reaction to Izzy is interesting to me. Because I have a very specific take on him. I love Izzy, I think he's amazing. I think dialing in on like, whether he's straight, or in the closet and hates himself, or if he's out and hates himself, or whatever the relationship is with Blackbeard, and it is a very dark relationship, but... I just love Con. I think he's an amazing, he's amazing. And I love him in that part. And I feel like... It's been fun and interesting to see people process him in that part, and what he brought to it. And surprising.

Kristian: Just on that subject, what's really interesting for me is, in other things I've done – which I will not mention because they're always talked about – I could maybe see other people playing a different take on a role, or someone...  I can't see anybody else playing anybody on this show. I can't see anybody else.

David: No, I mean...

Kristian: I've never felt that way.

David: No, it's just like, it's why I annoy the writers room with impressions. Because it's how... It's a little bit like an HTML test. Like, you can preview HTML to see if you've coded it right.

Kristian: Okay..?

David: If I can read the line in a terrible impression and it sounds good, then hopefully by the time it gets to you guys, it will feel like it's specific to each of you and it's not just shooting out a bunch of jokes that we think are funny. But it's a character comedy and everything that you guys bring to it make the show what it is and bring the writing to life. So yeah, no, no one's interchangeable in the show. Absolutely not.

Kristian: I also will say that – without saying anything at all about season two – just a difference in writing I noticed was, for my own lines, it definitely felt more like me saying them. I didn't have to really... You know, it was written for me more.

David: I think that's right. I mean, we learned...

Kristian: Probably the same for everybody.

David: We learned who you were. Like, my favorite thing of yours in the first... of many things in the first season, I love the little pair of you and Joel getting the, you and Frenchie getting the room and becoming room people.

Kristian: Yeah.

David: It's just sweet, and you guys are just lovely together, and just, writing that, that was written on set. And that was like...

Kristian: Really?

David: Yeah, I mean, you gotta scramble, gotta, gotta... We were like, oh man, this episode needs a C story. So I think we were writing that while we were shooting like, probably episode four or something. And we... so it was fun. I got to spend time with you, got to spend time with Joel. And that's one of those things that when you're in production and you see people, then it's just invigorating, and you get more accurate.

Kristian: That's awesome. I love that, I absolutely love that.

Were there any scenes that required a lot of reshoots or were difficult to film? (18:30)

Kristian: So... okay. imsorryrumhammm asks: "Were there any season one scenes that required a lot of reshoots or were just difficult to film in general?"

David: We maybe played around a little bit with the pilot, just because it's hard... I don't even know why it's called Pilot, because it wasn't a pilot, we were picked up to series, it should be called Stede Bonnet. But I think that... dialing in when you're first there, everyone's new. And I think the first thing we shot was Stede coming down the stairs and doing his, you know, [Rhys impression] "Alright, everybody, we gotta do the..." You know, "Some of us are gonna be mentally devastated by what we..." [laughter]

Kristian: Yeah. That's pretty good.

David: [Rhys impression] Oh, thanks. I do, I do a serviceable Rhys. [in his own voice] And I think that, seeing the group side of it, we kept his side of it, and then we reshot all of you guys listening to him.

Kristian: That's right.

David: And I actually think it was, that was the last thing we shot, is the reshoot of all of you guys listening to your side of him, of his speech. It was the first thing we shot, and the last thing we shot, it was a reshoot. And I have to say, I'd love to do that on every season of television in the first season. To go back and reshoot a scene from the first episode at the end of the season when everyone's dialed in and they know their characters.

Kristian: Yeah.

David: That's an amazing gift, that they let us do that.

Kristian: Yeah. It was very different. Definitely felt very different on the last day than it did on the first day.

David: Yeah, totally. And it's kind of sentimental because you're like, ah, I remember how nervous we all were on the first day. And everyone's nervous, Taika is nervous, I'm nervous, everyone's, you're nervous. Everybody's nervous, it's the first day of school. And then we have a pirate ship. [laughter] What is that? It's an actual pirate ship. And then...

Kristian: Yeah, you don't really have a frame of reference for that in your everyday life. Can't be ready for it.

David: Just, like. Taika was saying to me, he's like, oh, man, I'm not used to having like a set. Like, Marvel, I guess things are greenscreen. And he, I think he said this is the biggest set he's been on, which...

Kristian: Oh wow.

David: Yeah, so even he was like, you know. It's just neat to be on a show where it's like, oh man, we're not going to shoot a show in like a law firm set. Or like, you know, an office set. Like, we're going to shoot a show on a pirate ship.

Kristian: I know. That's pretty lucky.

David: It doesn't get better than that.

Kristian: It's almost like a cast member, I think, that boat.

David: Oh, my God. I mean, Ra, Ra Vincent who designed it, is absolutely incredible. He's the best, and I'm in awe of him. He's my hero, I'm absolutely in awe of him. And he's just a lovely guy.

Kristian: Yeah, so many great people. There's so many great people working behind the scenes.

David: Every head of department, incredible.

Kristian: Yeah, they really do. Very lucky. 

Which character on the Revenge do you most identify with? (21:50)

Kristian: Confusedmagpie6, not five or four, number six. "David, which character on the Revenge do you most identify with?"

David: Ooh. I don't know. It depends on the episode. Sometimes Stede, sometimes Blackbeard, sometimes Izzy. Sometimes... all of you, every one of you, because it is like...

Kristian: Well it's because they're all parts of you.

David: Yeah. And it's just... I don't know. If you feel something for each of the characters, you feel something because they're going through something you've gone through. 

Kristian: Yeah. 

David: So it is like... Maybe it's because I have an acting background, but I feel like I get to play all of the characters when we're writing. I get to play all of them. And then when I give it to you guys, it feels great, but it's also like, "Aw. I was playing that part." So you all... Jim, sometimes. All of you, all of you.

Kristian: Yeah. Okay. That's good to know.

Any advice for someone who dreams about writing TV shows and telling stories? (23:01)

Kristian: Let me see. So many questions. Okay, this is from Teachbonnets. Teachbonnets. "Any advice for someone that dreams about writing TV shows and telling stories like you do?"

David: Sure. Yeah.

Like stuff. Like stuff. Don't be someone that doesn't like stuff. And if you don't like stuff, don't be a dick about it. It's okay to not like stuff. You don't have to like everything. Just like stuff.

And zero in on the stuff that you like. If you have a super critical voice, which we all do – I do, I went to battle with that for years – it will turn on you and you will... the same way you tear apart a TV show you don't like, that voice will tear apart your own work. So like stuff. And if you don't like something – which is fine, I don't like stuff all the time – find something in there that you did like. That's the most important thing, and that's how you keep your heart and your soul alive. And once you can't do that, you gotta take a break, go eat a sandwich, do something else, play a video game, you know, kiss your cat.

Kristian: Go to hospital afterwards.

David: Maybe. Maybe if it's a mean cat. That sounds like general vague advice. It's incredible advice.

Kristian: Well, yeah, it's very similar to creating music. I mean, I... you celebrate the music you love and your influences. You don't sit and go, "oh, I hated this band", you don't focus in on that, you know. And you go and listen to new stuff, don't... If you're ever stuck, go and listen to some new music and get inspired again.

David: I think that's right. Another thing I'd say is like, things that you love, go read the scripts. Because there won't be many things that you love love love, but if you love love love it, go read the script.

Kristian: Yeah.

David: That helps. And then you can kind of figure out like, okay, this is why, this is what that script does. It's interesting, okay.

Kristian: That's really good advice. A lot of people [in the chat] are loving it.

David: Another thing I'd say, too, and this is the last thing I'll say, is... It's okay to impersonate the style of someone you love, an artist that you love. It's okay. Like, you have your own voice, by the time it comes out of you, it's going to sound like its own thing. But a thing I've noticed is your heroes, if you're kind of really into their work, will end up probably liking your work, because it's familiar to them. It's inspired by their voice. There's something to that.

And it sounds like, oh, I'm saying people are narcissists or something. And that's not it. It's just like, we gravitate towards our own tribe. And if someone learned from watching your stuff, you kind of know – they know how your brain works, you know how their brain works. I mean, it's very easy to write or produce something with Taika in it, because I love his work. And I think it's very easy for him to be like, "Okay, this will be safe. This will be good. I can lean back, he's got it." And that's been a really good thing, and it's been something that's helped me in my career.

Kristian: That's great news.

How did you end up doing your cameo appearance in season one, and did you consider taking on a bigger acting role? (27:05)

Kristian: Okay. "You make a…" From onefinemayday. "David, you make a cameo appearance in episode one. How did you end up doing that role in particular? And did you consider taking on a bigger acting role in the series?"

David: I didn't, because the show's big. It's big, and it's got like, we have a giant LED screen and there's all this stuff happening. And then I was like, I'll just do this, it will be fun. And my buddies were Mike Crane and Connor Barrett...

Kristian: We had them last week.

David: And Brian Gattas, you know, and.... It's just great, it's fantastic to be able to write roles for your friends. And, you know, if they can do it, and especially if they're out there, yeoman actors and incredible actors, and you get to write something for them, and they get to be in it. It happens so rarely that when it does happen... And then it was just kind of nice to be like, oh, I'll do something with them. Like, what an honor to be able to do that. So it was fun.

But I will say when I was doing that I was just itchy, I was just like, Ah, shit. I have so much other work to do. I remember I have to be here for the whole thing. It's gonna take forever to shoot this! And then the set was really hot, and then it smelled like beef jerky.

Kristian: Yeah, no shit! It does smell like beef jerky, but that's just us. Just the actors.

David: Yeah. I was supposed to be in more stuff, but it was just busy. It was kinda like...

Kristian: Oh, really?

David: It was kind of like, Mike was like, [impression] "should you be on the boat in this part?" And I was just like nah, they're not gonna notice. They're not gonna notice that Captain Shaw or whatever is not in the dinghy.

Kristian: Wow.

David: I'll just show up to the later scene. 

Kristian: You guys are awesome. Such nice guys. I didn't know they didn't really know each other that well before. Connor was saying they got to know each other better, and they just absolutely loved it.

David: Aww. Those guys are lovely.

Kristian: Yeah, they're awesome. Connor is amazing.

David: Yeah. They're both really lovely people.

What made you decide to turn Blackbeard and the Gentleman Pirate into a love story? (29:18)

Kristian: Let's see, we're about, I'd say we're a quarter of the way through. So... David. Okay. From wesmanderson.

David: I see what you did. I see what you did.

Kristian: What?

David: Wes Manderson. I get it. Little play on words.

Kristian: I don't get it, what is it?

David: It's a Wes Anderson pun.

Kristian: Oh, duh. Sorry. "For David..."

David: That's it, or his name is Wes Manderson. I don't know.

Kristian: "Relatively little is known about the time that historical Blackbeard and the Gentleman Pirate sailed together. What made you decide to turn it into a story of finding love?"

David: It only seemed like that to me. It seemed like the only plausible explanation for why the best pirate ever would take on this moron, who just, just started. And it was like, you can come up with reasons, I guess. But it's vague enough. And then they're sailing together, it's not totally explained. And then he's captaining his ship. They're together a lot. It just feels like a fling, when you're reading it, it's like, I think the only explanation is that they were together. And then, their actual thing turned into like a bad breakup, where I think Blackbeard ended up stealing his ship and abandoning his crew. He does basically what he does in the finale, that's where I took it from. And it was like, that's what you do when you're jilted. That's just, that was my initial take on it, reading it.

And it was like, also, pirate history, we don't know what happened. It's so whitewashed. And it's so... A lot of pirate history was written by colonizers to dress down and explain why pirates, who are pretty much poor people on boats, and they were vets of wars that had PTSD and whatever else and were abandoned by their country, and were like, "Screw this. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go do this." So I think it's fun to be able to do all this different stuff with it, because I think the history is not very accurate. So then it's just like, just have fun with it.

Kristian: Yeah. Okay.

Did you have Taika in mind from the very first moment, and had you ever imagined he'd want to play Blackbeard? (31:50)

Kristian: Okay. From taikabrainrot.

David: Yeah. Oh boy.

Kristian: I know. It's not as bad as it could be.

David: It sounds bad, it sounds bad.

Kristian: It's just not. "Did you have Taika in mind from the very first moment, and had you ever imagined he'd want to play Blackbeard?"

David: Yes. Never imagined he'd do it, but definitely wrote the part in his voice. Because it's fun. You don't, like, Blackbeard when you're writing it, it's like [gruff voice] "Arr, I'm gonna be Blackbeard and I'm, brah brah brah."

Kristian: Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.

David: And to be like... Yeah. And then to be like, no, he's just like, [Taika impression] "Oh, yeah, I'm, I'm Blackbeard." [in his own voice] It's just lowkey. Just that voice coming out of that beard and that outfit. And I kind of remember when he stepped on set the first day, and I think he was like, damn, do I have to do like a grizzly, like, thing...

Kristian: Batman voice?

David: Yeah. I was like, don't do, no, just do nothing. Just do you. Because you look, you can't see you but you look incredible. And just to have his voice and everything that he brings coming out of that look, and not having to screw with it, is the secret sauce of the show. And I think the language of how we wrote Blackbeard, who's basically like, a Sofia Coppola character in the first season. I mean he's like a Lost In Translation Blackbeard. He's frustrated with his career, he's burned out...

Kristian: Did you know that's my favourite movie?

David: Oh, I love that movie. I don't know if I have a favourite movie, but I love it.

Kristian: Yeah, when people ask me, that's one of my go-tos. I just love that movie.

David: Is that your favourite?

Kristian: I mean, when people ask, somewhere in the top five.

David: It's a beautiful movie.

Kristian: Beautiful movie, yeah.

David: It's hard to write depression in a way that's interesting. Because depression is not very active.

Kristian: Also it reminded me I'd been away a lot from my loved ones and travelling a lot and sort of, it just spoke to me on that level. And people didn't get what you're doing, don't understand what you're going through and you know. But yeah, it's such an amazing movie. I watch it over and over.

David: I love it too, because it's like, in writing the part and building the part... It's no accident. It's hard to remember that there was a time when people didn't think Bill Murray could be a dramatic actor.

Kristian: Mmm.

David: And to see that, to experience it while it was happening in real time and be like, that's the guy from Saturday Night Live and like, Caddyshack. What? How is he so good? Yeah, there's something when a comedic actor is in a dramatic role. When it fits, it makes my heart leap. It's the best thing and I can't explain it.

Kristian: The Eternal Sunshine Of A Spotless Mind, with...

David: That's right.

Kristian: It's so good.

David: I think it's just, in building Blackbeard, it was like, it's a dramatic part. Stede's essentially a dramatic... I mean, I write stuff that I'd like to play the drama of it, and then they're doing stupid things, but you play it pretty straight. But I think that writing that, Blackbeard was very much like Lost In Trans– Bill Murray in Lost In Translation. And then just putting that through Taika and having him start from this place where he's burnt out and he's seen all this stuff, and then he meets this idiot. And there's something very attractive about amateur status, that you have to protect your amateur status, no matter how well it goes for you, because there will be a point where you're burnt out. And you forget why you're doing it. And then you look to some weird motherfucker who's doing it in their own way, and is not tied down and bogged down with all these, you know, years and thoughts and people telling you you can't do XYZ, and they're just doing something weird. That's what I love about this Stede–Blackbeard relationship. He's like, [Taika voice] "oh, this guy's just weird." I love it.

Kristian: It's an amazing dynamic.

David: It's sweet.

Kristian: Yeah, it is very sweet. I mean, honestly, I didn't... It came across sweeter to me when I watched it on TV than it did on the set. Obviously it's with the music and everything and oh, it's so beautiful.

David: Is it... What were you, what were you thinking when you were shooting it? Were you...

Kristian: "I hate these guys." No.

David: I was sure the whole time, I feel like everybody's like ehhh, ehhh… [mimes throwing up]

Kristian: I mean, I wasn't there for all the romantic bits, I wasn't hiding in a cupboard, you know, in their romantic bits, I didn't see those. But yeah, they're just very... the dynamic between them as actors is very good. It's an unusual dynamic.

David: It is interesting just to see the joy of it. It's like people don't realize – and even I don't realize and I've made these before – where you're like, "Ohh. No one knows what this is" when you're shooting it. And then you guys show up, put on wigs, relocate to a different country! And then you don't... no one knows what the tone of the show is, until it's out and cut together. We're learning in real time with the audience. Like, does the show work or not?

Kristian: That's actually really true, because we did not know what the flavor of the show was at all. We just did what we did.

David: God bless you, man. I feel for all of you because you just bring everything, and you just trust. And for all you know, it could be just terrible.

Kristian: Oh no, we knew it wasn't really terrible. We all knew that. I mean, it was well-written...

David: Well, I didn't! I didn't. 

Kristian: I know but you're you, you're...

David: I didn't. I mean, if you're doing something interesting, you should feel a little bit like, oh shit, we might stink the joint up.

Kristian: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just so different. There's no, you have no precedent.

David: I think that's right. I think the thing I will say is seeing everybody gel. And there's like... this sounds so witchy-woowoo. There's vibes, when it's working and a scene is working, you can feel it. The crew gets excited. The director gets excited. The actors are excited. Everybody, everybody, like... their posture straightens. You know, it's just, they're watching it and you're just fully like... And it was that way watching you all together, where it was like, ohh, this will work. This will work.

Kristian: Yeah.

If you could cast anyone in Our Flag Means Death, who would it be and what would you make them do? (38:43)

Kristian: Okay. apurplepatch asks: "If you could cast anyone alive or not in Our Flag Means Death who hasn't been in the show so far, who would it be and what would you make them do?"

David: Oof. Boy. 

Kristian: That's a huge question! 

David: It's a lot of people. I'd love to get Javier Bardem, just because I love him. I'd love to get Russell Crowe, because I think it'd be fun to have Master and Commander in the show.

Pedro Pascal was my favorite, and somebody that I was very much thinking of when I was writing Blackbeard. He would've been an amazing Blackbeard. I think Taika is the archetypical, fantastic Blackbeard, but I think Pedro Pascal... I mean, obviously everyone's having a love fest for him right now, but they should be, he's incredible.

Kristian: Everyone loves Pedro, I mean, everything he's in is amazing.

David: He's incredible.

Kristian: A great guy, also.

David: Yeah, that's what I've heard too.

Kristian: Oh, he's great. He's so nice, so so nice.

David: It's nice when people are nice, isn't it?

Kristian: Yeah, it is. It makes a big difference, actually.

David: It's a relief, oh, nice people can do well.

Kristian: Yeah, sometimes.

David: Yeah! You're like, yeah, sometimes nice people do well, sometimes they're destroyed. [laughter] Now be nice. Try to be nice. 

What was the process of casting Karl like? (40:06)

Kristian: Yeah. I'm asking this question because I want to ask it, because it's ridiculous and I love it. From ethel_fey. "What was the process of casting Karl like?" And, I'm making this part up, were the other seagulls who didn't make it disappointed? I put the last bit in.

David: Yeah. We read a lot of seagulls for that part, kid. We read a lot of seagulls for that part. We called in every seagull on both coasts and we put them through their paces. We put them through their paces. [laughs] There's apparently, like, bird wranglers.

Kristian: Yeah, there are.

David: And then it was kind of like, thinking like, oh, alright, well. In writing it we were like, we put in little punctuations where he'd be like, caw, caw. And then we had him speaking and doing subtitles, and so... And then we learned very early on that, the wrangler was like, oh no, seagulls don't talk on command.

Kristian: No, they don't caw.

David: No, they just go like, they just go like this. [sits up and turns his head stiffly from side to side] That's it.

Kristian: Yeah, they're very docile birds.

David: Our Jonathan Seagull, no, Jonathan and Steven Seagull were our two gulls.

Kristian: Steven Seagull, I mean, seriously.

David: They're, they're consummate professionals.

Kristian: They really are. In another show, in another life, I had to work with ravens.

David: Oh, what was that like?

Kristian: Ravens are not nice birds to work with.

David: Was it scary?

Kristian: Yeah, I love them. Obviously being a middle-aged goth I was like, oh my god, it's ravens, it's The Crow. I'm gonna, I'm gonna steal one, I'm gonna wear a leather trenchcoat and walk down the street. And, no.

David: Ha! They've got giant beaks.

Kristian: Yeah. The wrangler said, if they look at you, don't make eye contact. Look away quickly. If one... When it was filmed, there was like 40 of them in this room. But if one lands on you, just sit still like a rock. Close your eyes, because they will go for your eyes.

David: Oh no.

Kristian: And don't panic. So of course, the first take, one landed on my head...

David: Oh no.

Kristian: ...and my first reaction and, and staying calm, was to put my arms in the air and... [screams] And bat it off.

David: People don't realize that, too, where it's just like, you're just that human body on set...

Kristian: That's me, that's me, actually.

David: And you've been given this bird that you don't know what it's gonna do, and people are like, oh, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. I remember Ewen was like... Ewen is the consummate professional and lovely. And also has been around and knows what can happen on a set. So when we put him...

Kristian: Yeah, I mean, I love them, I love birds, but I want to keep both eyes. I don't want to be that method. I won't turn up for season three with one eye.

David: Yeah, well, so we put the bird with Ewen and Ewen was very, you know, [Scottish accent] he held the bird on his arm and he was very, you know, ohh. [in his own voice] I was like, can we put it, can we put it on your shoulder? He's like, [Scottish accent] "No, I'm afraid of it, it, getting my eye." I was like, "You're right. You are right. You're not wrong."

Kristian: No.

David: "So what if we put it on your head at one point then?" But you really have to play it out and just see, geez, what is this animal gonna do? And then, I hope this actor feels safe. So you...

Kristian: It is hard to act when you're fearing for your body parts.

David: No, totally. And then it would be one of those things where something happened to you on set and everyone would feel bad, but you're still the dumb bastard that got your eye pecked out. You know, on a TV show. 

Kristian: You just let it happen, you let it happen. "I was in the character, man, so."

Con news? (44:05)

Kristian: There's a question for both of us here. For me, "any UK con news?" It's from mymentalshelf. I can't announce it yet, but there is gonna be one. I can't announce it yet. It's in a major city. I'm sure you can imagine. It's the very first one you'll probably think of, but I can't say it. But that's it, that's all I can say.

David: [overlapping] Say it, give us a hint, what is it?

Kristian: I can't say it!

David: Say it.

Kristian: No. But the next part of the question is, "David, will you be attending any cons?" [David: (unintelligible)] Yes, segue. Will you be attending any cons?

David: Ehh, I dunno.

Kristian: You would love it.

David: Pass.

Kristian: No, you would love it. You'd love a con.

David: I'm changing the subject too. Pass.

Kristian: Well, did you see the videos of ECCC...C? I'm not sure how many C's.

David: No, it's like, again, it makes my heart leap. I love it. I love it.

Kristian: Did you see how many people were in those rooms?

David: Yeah. I can't believe it.

Kristian: Yeah.

David: I show it to people in my life and they're like, "Pfft, no way. What? For your... the pirate show? Wow."

Kristian: That's huge. And all the people dressed up. I mean, that's, that's just incredible.

David: It's an honor. It's an honor.

Kristian: That's why you should go.

David: I mean, it never happens, and you can't assume that it will ever happen again. And the fact that it's happening and it has this life, it's, it's one of the honors of my life. It's absolutely incredible.

Kristian: Okay. Okay, we have one more question.

David: Yes.

Kristian: Well, that's, this needs to be a good one.

David: Get a good one, man. Don't get a weird one, get a meaty one in here.

Kristian: I'll find a different one. Okay.

David: Hey, what was that project that you were talking about?

Kristian: I put you under pressure here. It's, I put you under pressure, not the other way round. I like this dynamic.

Which scene makes you most emotional? (43:53)

Kristian: So, which scene makes you emotional the most? And what would you say makes you, what made you cry? What your most emotional scene to watch?

David: Oh. The whole, the last three episodes, really, like... Gina Sansom edited eight and nine. And they're just beautiful and I think the... Blackbeard being left by Stede is, that... it's like, "Aww. Oh."

Kristian: Sad.

David: I cry at that point.

Kristian: Been there.

David: What?

Kristian: I've been there.

David: Yeah, we all have. Who hasn't been done dirty? We've all been there, man.

Kristian: That's why it's so heart-rending, it's totally relatable.

David: Even Blackbeard can get dumped, go eat an edible. Sure, yeah. Oh yeah, you said inevitable. [laughter] I think, I think, um, I think... The montage, the thing of, of Mary explaining what love is to Stede.

Kristian: Oh yeah.

David: And him realizing as she's saying it, that what he's feeling is love.

Kristian: Yeah. I thought that was so nice.

David: Ahh. Oh, I love that.

Kristian: It caught me by surprise tonight. I was like... oop. Just bite my lip.

David: It's rare. It's rare. I, you know, very rarely do I love the taste of my own cooking, but when something clicks like that, yeah, it's like that's the heart, that's the reason to make the show, and then it works. Even to get that bite, even if everything else sucks. And it doesn't, but if it did. To have one thing, one moment come together like that is just, it just feels, it's an amazing feeling.

Kristian: Yeah, really, it's amazing. Well done. You've created a beautiful thing.

David: Aww, thank you. You too. Back at you.

Kristian: Yeah, man. And you know, you're really good at being... You're not an oppressive presence on set, but you're there when you need to be. And there's been times I've had to have a talk about stuff. You're good at sensing when someone's having a shit day. There's definitely been times you've picked me up. So yeah, so thank you for that.

David: Aw man, that makes me feel good, I'm glad you feel that way.

Kristian: No, it's been... You know, not all showrunners are like that. 

David: Well, it's hard. It's a hard job and everybody reacts differently to it. And every situation is different, and you just don't want to fail your actors, and you don't want to fail.

Kristian: Well, you definitely have not. So, yeah.

outro (48:40)

Kristian: So this is the last of Wee John Wednesdays, which, some people have said, will I keep doing them? And the answer is fuck no.

David: It's hard, it's hard to pull that energy.

Kristian: Little do you guys know, as soon as I hang up this call, I go to the studio, and I'll sit there till 4:00 AM making music, in a studio 20 miles from here. And I do it every Wednesday. So it's quite a long night, all in all. But I will do them occasionally, and obviously when season two comes out, we'll have a look at what happens. Everybody's asking for dates. We don't know the dates, guys.

David: Well, everybody dies in the first episode, so we start all over with a new cast.

Kristian: I'm sorry...

David: I wasn't supposed to spoil that. 

Kristian: What episode?

David: Episode one. [mimes cutting throat]

Kristian: Don't tell everybody, we're still live here, oh my god.

David: Ah, sorry, whatever. I'm over it. I'm over it. [mimes smoking a cigarette]

Kristian: And the only last thing I have to say is, I got an email from my manager the other day. A group of fans – this is completely unbeknownst to me – as a thank you, have offered to donate some money to a charity of my choice to thank me for doing this, which I'm totally... it's not necessary. But as it's for charity, I'm completely blown away. So thank you guys. I mean, that means so much. I mean, you guys are the best, literally the best fandom in the world. You've all made friends with each other. You've made a community.

David: Agree. I agree.

Kristian: So we are very grateful.

David: There are very few dicks. There are very few dicks in the fandom, I have to say, in my experience.

Kristian: I know. That's so rare.

David: People are uniformly nice.

Kristian: Yeah. Yeah. So. And the charity I'm going to give it to is a Belfast charity called Haven. They're an outreach charity for homeless people. And they do the hot meals and they look out for them and they find them in the street and stuff. So that's who I'm gonna give it to. So thank you very much for doing that.

David, this has definitely been my favorite so far. 

David: Oh, you're just saying.

Kristian: Oh yeah, totally, I'm just saying that. No, who am I kidding, no, it's been awesome. You've been the climax I'd been waiting for.

David: Aww- ooh. Woo! All right! That's all I wanted to hear, baby. All I wanted to hear, handsome. [mimes smoking] It was good for me too.

Kristian: [laughing] What's going on there, what's going on? Alright. Thank you so much, David.

David: Alright, love.  

Kristian: I'm sure I'll talk to you very soon.

David: Yeah.

Kristian: Guys, thank you so much, I'll talk to you very soon also. Take care, thanks for watching.

David: Bye, love you all.

Kristian: Take care. Bye bye.